Dermot O'Riordan on decentralizing Web3 hosting and blockchain RPC nodes

0:00I'm Ashton Addison from Block West capital for investment pitch media and today on the Crypto Coin Show we have dermont oriordan director of the pocket Network Foundation Dermot welcome to the show and thank you for taking the time hey Austin thanks for having me how you doing I'm doing well I'm excited to dive into blockchain infrastructure one of the

0:21foundations of building web 3 you know you need infrastructure to allow for all of these applications and tokens to be on there so people can trade and use applications for the future of the internet and I know you know a lot about this so I'm excited to dive into pocket network but I'd love to start out our conversation first of all by just hearing a little bit on yourself in

0:43blockchain and how that led to becoming a director at the foundation and then we'll dive into all the details cool yeah I have a great question I guess I've kind of worn many different hats in my career today and I kind of I guess I'm a bit of a generalist at heart I've been a startup operator from the early days kind of say back when timo6 in Dublin with the web Summit now the

1:03world's largest conference a technology conference around the world a very much tech company in terms of how it runs and how they run their services I was a lawyer it may be advising large VCS as well as kind of startups right from raising their first kind of 50k 100K check right up to later stage unicorn runs and involved with different kind of

1:21startup communities and for me it's always been what's been the driving force behind that is like yes technology is this amazing lever for good but it has to actually drive real impact in the human world so I think communities and Havens interact or courts of that and yeah I guess jumping ahead just before joining pocket I was a partner at a 30 million dollar seed stage fund

1:40called the Eaton block and my pathway into crypto I guess was while I was I guess probably 2016 kind of three four years of working as a lawyer for one of the kind of top level law firms and yeah doing all these super interesting deals Venture firms and private Equity Big Ticket M A and for me technology I was always the pull I kind of wanted to be

2:02on the other side of the fence but actually kind of the big aha moment really was with the rise of the Day in 2016 and here was I designing these kind of essentially governance systems for these kind of interesting kind of very interesting kind of investments in companies and here was just people just doing this on the internet kind of coordinating at

2:19scale I was like this is kind of hopelessly naive it's crazy but I kind of love this kind of feels more part of the future so that has been the pull for me and as governance how do we work better together and we still haven't got the answer right for Dez but it's main I guess one of the two main reasons in my pocket here today and that's kind of I guess

2:39one I think what pocket solving is one of the most fundamental problems in the space I guess it kind of goes back to if you believe that the data that will reside on any open database and I say any open database because that will include every blockchain every and I guess are these pseudo blockchains when zero knowledge kicks in there's all these other new types with Airbus

3:00there's ipfs it's all this kind of new open world and really it's how do we access that and I guess there's a kind of question there of are the incentives there is the infrastructure there is it reliable who can get access at what cost are there privacy kind of trade-offs when you have to access that and we I guess at Pockets kind of fundamental

3:21belief is that you should have fundamental access to what is this kind of fundamental right so to speak without any trade-offs is the kind of the ideal and then the second side of that is quarter Pockets strategy and thesis is the only way to do this really is through the community and actually that's kind of like decentralization is a great word

3:39and we all love it but actually it's it's got to drive some real value and that for me is we're using decentralization in terms of like how we build this together how we kind of hopefully collectively run maintain and govern this kind of a crucial piece of infrastructure and I realize I haven't directly said what pocket did yet but I'm happy to do that no I love it and

4:00great background and I love that you're touching on the decentralized nature of it and the Dow aspect and I think we're going to dive into that on the second half just learning more about why it's important to have that kind of governance in a protocol and you know yeah you're dancing around it you know we need the data availability we need blockchains and pseudo blockchains and

4:21oh you know future kind of databases to be available and to be accessed in the right way now let's just take a step back and look at it from the top level and you know for those people who they're familiar with Bitcoin and ethereum a little bit and they're sort of trying to learn more about all these different solutions can you talk about the main solutions that

4:43that pocket network is providing for the blockchain infrastructure from a high level yeah for sure I guess the kind of easiest way to think about it is the way blockchains are run they're essentially these P2P networks and the way they're designed technically just like the early kind of browse the internet is you should have your own server to access and interact

5:03with these blockchains to kind of read the state and to kind of send your transactions realistically nobody's going to do this and also when you look at the kind of the size of ethereum nodes today I mean it's it's it gets super super technical and thankfully there are Technologies and teams that are making easier for people to run nodes and also run

5:20validators and so on and so forth but the fact is people pay for convenience and naturally despite people maybe aligning with the decentralized ethos and everything else the whole of web3 today really is run by kind of centralized access points that essentially that means people are running nodes on your behalf and that's the likes confirm Alchemy and I

5:39don't actually mean centralized in a bad way they're they're solving core problems they're like fundamental ways in which people can actually I guess more people can enter the space because not everyone's gonna if you're going to want to grow the size of the space you need to make it easier for people to use it so that's why we rely on these major companies to access

5:57all the different blockchains we care about and you start with the big players like upcoming inferior and you're going to work all the way down every single blockchain needs this access otherwise your community won't be able to kind of access to you know for example your wallets what's in your browser reading past transactions and then of course you

6:15can listen to nfts and all of this kind of fun stuff and also the more interesting things you can do at blockchains and even to send transactions if you don't have if not running your own infrastructure you need to access one of the I guess these providers to do this on your behalf and yeah some people talk about this as RPC remote procedure call and that's

6:32really just how people into I guess kind of the Ed side clients or kind of applications how they interact with the blockchain to read or write to it essentially that's a great explanation and when you mention Alchemy there you know I recently saw an article that talked about the wealthiest people that are in blockchain and often people don't think

6:57about the infrastructure side because it's more on the back end you know and you know they had CZ at number one coinbase CEO number two and number three and four were actually the guys from Alchemy you know and it's just shows that how important the infrastructure is and how so all these companies are relying on running nodes and it sort of reminds me of Amazon where it's like

7:20you know Amazon is on Amazon web services they're sort of running the entire you know web2 it's very centralized almost 80 percent of the internet is being run on there and it's an issue because it's a centralized point of failure and they sort of control the market and they can set the prices and do whatever they want and if this continues on the web 3 side then

7:40it's probably going to end up in the same issues that we have in web 2. yeah completely and I think again I guess there's the natural tension because of activate AWS and then in terms of our space wouldn't appear in an Alchemy same particular because they've grown to be kind of really the number one they have solved a lot of problems and we have needed them but you're right I

8:01think the more that we rely on them the more we give up in terms of our agency our control and these risks start to compend really in terms of other side the size of space grows and that's the course the kind of basic thing of reliability if they go down that kind of means for most people that the whole of every blockchain you care about that you use them to interact with is also dead

8:20So there's no variable fail-safes there people obviously we're not saying they only rely on one server they clearly have pretty sophisticated setups but it is a genuine risk and we have seen the likes of El Camino inferior good at multiple times over the last few years this happens recently regularly and so that's that's one point there's also I guess the fact that

8:40They've also raised lots of money for their investors right they expect to return that doesn't mean that means there's going to be a natural margin there and that replacing applies a whole tax on everyone who's ever accessing web three people say the same thing on AWS they have a huge margin actually at this stage and I got a certain company of scale so if we think or believe that

8:59there will be more and more value existing on blockchains these open days database in the future I think it's fundamental that we actually think about how we overcome these potential risks whether it's privacy whether it's kind of the reliability facts and also I guess yeah even just kind of the access points right just kind of maybe you're from a certain country and

9:20inferior has done that before you will not get access again that is a very very small subset of users but actually you're still excluding them so I guess there's all these kind of different trade-offs once you kind of give up your own kind of control over how we interact and access I guess what is this fundamental infrastructure and I guess

9:39certainly my bed and I guess most people in the web three space is that we want to enable more people to have more agency and control over I guess fundamental resources in terms of how they interact with their lives in terms of that whether that be kind of money I guess their other core assets of course even just kind of the data that all these kind of systems

9:56rely upon I guess thank you for explaining that and I have a few more questions about just the RPC endpoints and what exactly you can all do you know I think a lot of non-developers they just use wallets and transact and trade and they don't really understand the details behind what are exactly all the capabilities that some of these infrastructure

10:19endpoints can can do you know from what I understand one of the main things is if you want to run a node to participate in the network or say you are a developer you want to start building an app are those some of the main things that you're doing with the RPC endpoints yeah I think that's a yeah I guess maybe we'll introduce kind of exactly

10:43how pocket does it in a second but you're right any new blockchain starting up they will need they will want to have some other provider running notes because if the people building the blockchain themselves they may be running the nodes themselves but again if they go down there is no other redundancy so they want to kind of remove them themselves that single port

11:01source of failure also it's expensive and usually early on there's no natural business model attached to them so yes I guess if you want to read any data that exists on a blockchain so everything from your balance the type of assets your transactional history and anything more sophisticated everything you see on etherscan everything you see in your metamask

11:22everything's in your software use area on and every other blockchain you're on that's there's been some kind of RPC call and there's some related data infrastructure connected to this for example indexers like the graph they will use RPC calls to index kind of their more sophisticated graphs but it's all interconnected and RPC I guess is almost like the fundamental request from

11:45the blockchain of like okay I want to get all of that data and then I may sort it and index it into something more sophisticated for my own use case and I guess how pocket does it and I guess that's why we're super excited about how we can what we can enable it's instead of actually deciding we're going to run all the infrastructure ourselves so we're going

12:04to run nodes for any blockchain that you care about so everyone else can access it pocket Is An Open Marketplace similar to like an Uber or an Airbnb and essentially using the right incentives we can crowdsource infrastructure to for whatever blockchain I guess there is really demand for and that's why pocket as of today actually supports more blockchains than

12:26any other provider because able to do that because they can actually all we need is the right incentives to say hey there's this new blockchain starting up over here well we'll actually pay you x amount per per relay that you serve and a relay is essentially a data request that's actually kind of I'm a user or a developer I want to get the balance of

12:48Ashton's account and then you send that to the underlying blockchain say that's optimism or whatever it is and the person running that infrastructure they'll send it back to you in Pocket system they don't just send that to one infrastructure provider they usually send it to a group of many that can be up to 24 different nodes in a session and so that

13:05even means if half of them have gone down but they're all running different setups they've got different kind of different clients everything else it's very unlikely all 24 of them will be down and they're also the way pocket systems worked it actually is very distributed around the world so actually at scale and we've even seen this for at

13:24different times of the day pocket will actually have the best latency because instead of actually just having all of your infrastructure stored in a data center in Us East which is probably just somewhere in Virginia it actually could be next door to you in the next door has maybe someone's running some infrastructure maybe they're running some notes so that means your latency

13:41is going to be a lot quicker and the way the part of the head of our protocol is This brilliant guy called Daniel oshki he came up with this RPC trilemma and he kind of describes it that for any RPC service there are it's a trilemma you can only have two of the three and that's kind of the reliability which is kind of like the redundancy it

14:04doesn't go down you know the data is there and there's the performance and that's kind of like how does it scale what's the throughput like are you getting kind of the data you want and then the last piece is kind of how cost effective is it because you can maybe get super reliable super performant you can have all of this backup but maybe only 10 of your

14:22infrastructure has ever been used so if there's a big burst to your network you can handle it but that could be super expensive right because there's a lot of additional posture suffering so actually using an open network input pocket we believe we can actually solve this trilimer we can actually deliver guarantees around this data that is more reliable more performant and cost

14:43effect for the scale and I guess that's what we're working with in kind of the strategy that we're all kind of pushing forward both the foundation and in the data as well that's very cool and I think I have a better understanding of it and you know I sort of see it as synonymous to like your if you're Bitcoin mining you're running your own node and in that case you're

15:04trying to mine Bitcoin and get a reward but in this case you're running a node and helping with the MPC our Point endpoints to make calls to the blockchain and maybe you need some certain amount of Hardware to be able to run nodes efficiently but you're able to host it and do calls for other people and be rewarded through the network is that right yeah 100 essentially like

15:25think about it like an API request and actually I think you just touched upon a super interesting thing remember yeah I read a thesis about this actually a few years ago it's actually this problem was actually in some of the original Bitcoin talk forums back in the day because they realized of course there's incentives for securing the Bitcoin network but

15:42actually there were no there's no no incentives for actually serving the data requests so actually this was kind of something that was early positive on as an issue and a problem and people argued whether it should be actually in the protocol or not again it was talked about in ethereum and then actually when some kind of big crypto Skeptics like

16:00Lynn Alden who come from kind of tradify were kind of doing their kind of macro thesis and looking into I guess the broader crypto landscape and they're looking at ethereum particularly because ethereum differentiates itself in Bitcoin as kind of a instead of just creating decentralized money we can actually create decentralized applications and a

16:17whole new decentralized economy but actually one of her biggest critiques was that this whole decentralized economy is survive like I guess built on top of very shaky foundations essentially at the time was built on top of inferior that's the access point that for most people is how they like your metamask is powered by inferior for example all of these kind of key

16:35fundamental services and so when that goes down so does your access so yeah it is a real issue and I guess pocket is essentially providing the incentives for anyone then if you're running that infrastructure of course I'll open it up I'll connect to pocket I will serve some additional API requests for whatever application or a developer kind of cares about that I guess

16:56and you mentioned in the beginning about how when sort of dows came out and the Dow back in the day got very interested in it and I'm curious to know more on the decentralized community aspect of pocket Network and is it running like a traditional Dao and how exactly does that work to make decisions on when's the next stage of upgrades for the protocol and how do we determine who

17:20does what yeah yeah great question and yes I guess in terms of how pocket makes its system work to kind of serve RPC requests and this kind of efficient and performant way it's it has its own blockchain right now it wasn't possible to build it on ethereum or any Layer Two but actually again I'm not the technical one who can talk to you about that but

17:46actually when I do chat to our protocol lead and some of our team about this they believe actually layer twos could potentially support pocket in three or four years but right now it's not possible basically if we want to deliver the best service for I guess for the whole Space again Pocket Sports everyone from ethereum for another plus another 38 or

18:06so chains this is we need to kind of do it our way and actually that means pocket has a blockchain but it's a kind of a very dumb application specific blockchain and it's nothing programmable about that so the validators secure that blockchain just like they do in Bitcoin and ethereum but actually the way Pockets dial Works is actually instead of actually like

18:29in most other days where if you buy the token you get a vote we made an explicit design decision when thinking about Pockets governance if we truly believe the importance of what we're building we don't want it to be a plutocracy we don't want the governance fundamental resource to be governed or dictated by wealth it should be dictated by

18:49I guess your your impact your skin of the game and what we call our proof of participation governance model and so basically if you're in and with and it's evolving right so I guess so they basically it means is you have to kind of prove that you have done certain things in the pockets ecosystem that we care about for you to get a vote and so that means you've been running

19:11infrastructure on the supply side you're an application or a kind of a Gateway that served a certain amount of requests or you're kind of actually a builder and you've actually had a successful proposal you've done some bounties and there's and there's different kind of things like this and we're actually about to announce in the kind of coming weeks

19:30An upgrade to our governance so it's going to be a bit more evolved and but even to give you a little bit of data on Pockets there for example while there's some really amazing thinkers and a lot of kind of like the more interesting days that have popped up in the last couple of years such an optimism and it's ens and yeah a lot of great communities and

19:50everything else because of the way it the kind of the token wealth and weighting is what governs your I guess your kind of governance power their dios are more unequal than the most unequal unequal countries in society so I think the most unequal country in the world in terms of the genie coefficient and like the difference between the richest to

20:11the poorest is South Africa and for example some of these other Dives are more unequal than that so if we truly want to build better systems that are better than the existing world we got to do better also in equal countries and ideally we do better than the most equal countries and the most kind of meritocratic companies at large and actually on

20:31the other on the other side because I talked about participation but currently pocket is one person one vote so once you're proven your skin on the game you get one vote so it's pockets is arguably perfectly equal saying that pocket system isn't isn't the end State that's not right right now I think we're we're too far at the other side we're slowly

20:47coming back into the middle we will be in the next system we will recognize we're going to have basically three buckets so there'll be a waiting for your alignment a kind of like your your knowledge so you know about our culture our mission our technology you kind of clearly care about supporting us and there's different ways of kind of quizzes and ways that you're

21:08showing that you kind of have your skin in the game and there's a waiting for that we expect that will be the biggest book because that's kind of the most people can participate in that the next book it will be impact and that's kind of you've done something that we care about and this will evolve over time initially we'll start out within the

21:24kind of the day I will vote these in and suggest more and that could again of course be successful bounties bigger grants you've helped run maybe you've helped with validator your kind of protocol upgrades all this kind of stuff and then the third bucket will be really our usage bucket but the way Pockets protocol work yeah you have to have a token to run infrastructure on a supply

21:43side and if you want to access RPC data on the demand side you also need to kind of stake your token so that's kind of a staked tokens represents your usage and your kind of skin of the game and this all kind of comes together to have a pretty interesting model wow very interesting dermont it's there's so many faucets to building a governance model it seems like you've been following

22:04along for many years and to figuring out how to have some skin in the game and have aligned values so people are also trying to take advantage of the system and I really like what you said there about comparing to real world countries and the imbalance of wealth I feel like that's a great comparison to say you know it should be better than what some of these countries have this

22:26imbalance of wealth it should be more equal and fair in a decentralized online way as well so I'm gonna take I'm gonna keep that as a benchmark moving forward when I see these and now I'm curious at the beginning you were saying you know when when blockchains they start up they need to run nodes and often they don't have a lot of the blockchains don't have

22:49a business model they don't have Revenue so there's a lot of costs involved in there as well but eventually they find ways to make it work and to build revenue or through different Avenues I'm curious about pocket Network and if there is a revenue model in this blockchain in the protocol and how you guys are sustaining the protocol and the growth of it

23:10yeah no that's a great question and yeah it's actually good timing as well so I guess the fundamental kind of Revenue model for pocket is that if you want to have access to this data from any blockchain you need to pay for those requests and what the and actually admittedly that wasn't always like that so pocket launched the network launched summer

23:32of 2020 actually pocket is actually three years old today actually I forgot to mention that so it's been around a while and it's been a bumpy ride to say the least but and early on of course nobody wanted to use it was guarantee it wasn't good enough it was slow and we didn't even have all the infrastructure then so actually we need a pretty high incentives on the

23:51supply side to get people to actually connect with pocket run that infrastructure and that was pretty successful and then towards the end of 2022 demand really started to kick off bucket had a pretty rough year last year there's no doubt about that I think it made some pretty clear mistakes we hadn't turned on Revenue early enough and actually we're giving out too

24:10much rewards to our supply side people were making crazy crazy money and we should have moved quicker as a community there's kind of resistance to that and everything else and I think we probably lost a little bit of Focus to some extent as well and actually while now our service is under the quality of services is getting really really good it I don't think that's the

24:32case but basically I think it's a classic case of expectations we're way higher than reality in terms of where pocket was early 2022 and a very different kind of middle of 2023. so in May middle of May this year the Dow kind of brought in a pastor proposal to charge every relay going to the network so now we have some protocol Revenue I think pocket ranks in the top five for

24:55any infrastructure protocols in terms of actual protocol Revenue so unlike say certain protocols where there are fees collected by the supply side like like a liquidity providers in uni swap is actually a fee going straight to the down so there is genuine protocol revenue and the Dow is burning that Revenue and so despite I guess pocket is I don't know wherever you wanna if you

25:17look at these kind of things or not but like I think pocket may be number 300 or something right now in terms of market cap in terms of actually kind of protocol Revenue I think it is number top 40 or top 50 or something like that right now kind of various but we're kind of it's roughly 30 40K a month in genuine fees that are being burned and yeah that's kind of we're

25:37expecting that to grow in the kind of coming months ahead as right now there is actually technically only one we call them a Gateway and that's really going back to that point around people pay for convenience even when it comes to Pockets protocol most people don't want to interact directly with the protocol so they would prefer to pay someone else to abstract that away

25:58for them but the great thing is you use any gateways on top of pocket you know that the back end is all decentralized so you still get your kind of web 2 Comforts but you know that the back end is decentralized and actually we're currently onboarding up to three if not four more of these gateways on top of pocket in the kind of coming a couple

26:18of months and they'll all be essentially selling access giving people kind of new features new kind of I guess new kind of front ends new ways of actually getting their RPC but all built on top of pocket which would really Drive demands and relays as well so yeah I guess what the real takeaway is I guess pocket economics are getting much more

26:37sustainable and I guess they're kind of where we're training in the right direction and no longer just in a pure burn money to grow kind of phase which I think is obviously unsustainable for sure and that's a great turnaround and hey I can't blame you for having a rough 2022 I think it was tough for most crypto companies with the collapse of all these different providers and

26:59you know just craziness all over and whoever survived it's a testament and it's great to hear that the protocol is now generating revenue and you guys have flipped the script and now you're continuing to grow and you mentioned there about a couple things coming up in the future I'm curious if there's any other big points on the road map for you

27:20know what's coming up in terms of growing the protocol and adding new functionality to the end of this year and into 2024. yeah yeah great question yeah and I guess kind of it's kind of maybe a framework we use which maybe is doesn't always hit with everyone but we're trying to test it and let's get some more feedback on that but yeah I'll talk about our

27:42broader pieces of strategy is how we become Unstoppable because our purpose is to empower and stoppable open data and the way we think about that is how do we improve pocket supply side so actually that's kind of making sure that's healthy diverse of course you want to bring keep bringing in great new infrastructure providers on that side but I guess some of the bigger drivers

28:00really are happening on the demand side I guess there's a course I mentioned new gateways building on top of pocket that's gonna be super helpful on the governance side we're making those governance upgrades that we mentioned and then on the Kappa Market side actually just kind of because Paul could say it's a kind of a it's an infrastructure Network and people

28:18actually need to use the token to access it to run it to run infrastructure but that's all been pocket isn't in the erc20 token it's on its own chain it's very hard for people to access so actually we're launching rap pocket at the end of Hope well probably by sometime in September basically I don't want to jinx it by kind of giving an exact date

28:40Basically going to be ended by end of Q3 and hopefully a few a good few weeks before then and that's just gonna be great in a number of different Fashions because rap pocket means a representation one-to-one of Pokemon ethereum in terms of our Dow and our contributors it means we can set up cool things like extremes so people are doing work and

29:04and they get paid but the community will then be able to challenge in real time if they're not happy with that they'll also be able to open these new strings for new types of work in real time which would be cool so there's a great level of transparency as well as just really accessing what like kind of the best in class Dow infrastructures out there and

29:17kind of some of those cool D5 infrastructure and obviously people who want to access pocket to use it they can actually will soon be able to buy it on new Swap and then bridge that across to the pocket blockchain and then kind of run nodes and all that good stuff and I guess get connected to this I guess I kind of dance around it but didn't directly say it is we launched this

29:35program called the era program which is basically kind of like our launch sequence for kind of I guess kind of pockets Apollo program and that's the big new protocol upgrade that's going to be happening by end of Q3 next year and that's see that's going to completely revolutionize Pockets blockchain cup Pockets blockchain well Pockets current blockchain is doing its

29:56thing but I wouldn't say it's and it's effective but the next version will be kind of world class and that kind of really is taking the very best of what's out there and rethinking the whole system from the ground up so everything we're doing is driving towards that and actually because I mentioned the community is so important and it is so important this new

30:14program it's like 1.4 million dollars in total that the Dow approved and there's different projects working towards some of my mentions like wrap pocket but there's also actually a way for the community to tap into these pools of funds so they can actually say hey here's like a request proposal or end there's something really important that we like whether it's actually kind of

30:36something to be built some tooling and so then people can compete in the open and work together what we really care about our values and working transparently and collaborating and the leader side is we need to make mistakes we need to learn right so actually there's ways for people to open up these mini seed grants called sockets and anyone with some skin in the game

30:54in Pocket can actually open up these like one to 5K monthly grants and this is all in the pub all in the open and essentially their members community members have kind of oversight and control over that so yeah we're kind of excited to see the community kind of take more control and kind of push more of the advances but actually the key thing is that we're all aligned

31:14around our actual mission of vision and we have a clear kind of strategy and roadmap in place so it's not just kind of sometimes in days I guess there's too much going on and not enough Focus like we're letting that emergence happening people decide what they kind of care about but as long as it drives one of our key priorities or metrics basically

31:31so there's kind of that accountability still there wow very cool I'm looking forward to following along with that and is there a place where we can follow along with these updates that you mentioned coming towards Q3 and also just people that want to learn about the Dao and getting involved potentially in the community where's the best place to follow along

31:52and learn all this information yeah great question I guess for sure follow us on Twitter right for follow Pocket Network and Twitter I think that's that's just great and actually we'll be doing more and more better updates on that so actually people can fall around and actually see what we're doing but actually ideally people want to get more involved so if

32:16you do I think it's it's cool to come to our Forum and that's kind of our governance Forum where a lot of deeper topics are happening saying that could be a little bit noisy for some so if you want to start we're just going to our website pot.network that will link you to all our socials whether it's Discord there's various unofficial telegrams as well you

32:34can look into the documents and there's there's links to ways that you can open up bantees suggest ideas and just start to get more involved and hopefully actually prove your skin on the game and actually earn a boat and actually start having kind of a say really in the future pocket as well very cool thank you so much dermond I'm going to leave those links in the

32:53description box below as well for the viewers to make it easy I appreciate all your insights into the blockchain infrastructure world it's quite fascinating and I'm liking where it's going all the best with pocket Network on these updates that are coming in the near future and let's definitely follow up then to get an update and see what the next stages are for pocket Network

33:13awesome thank you very much thank you