OdinBot brings perps copy trading to Jupiter with risk guardrails

0:00I'm Ashton Addison from the Crypto Coin Show, and today on Blockchain Interviews, we have Loki from Odinbot here to discuss copy trading, spot trading, perpetuals trading on the Solana ecosystem, how to follow the best traders and investors, and copy them without to find the their best wallets and then reap from the their winning trades and much more. Loki,

0:27welcome to the show and thanks for taking the time. Thank you, Ashton. It's great to be here. Yeah, I'm excited to dive into this because it's a lot Some of these So Solana traders are like highly knowledgeable, and if there's an opportunity to see into their wallets through these transparent blockchains, copy the trades that they're making, if they have a high winning percentage,

0:51that's definitely a win. And I would love to know more about how we can make that happen because looking at a Solana block explorer and just searching addresses, it's a big task, but the way that Odin has organized it made it easy and also through the Discord groups and the other social campaigns to follow the to spot who's winning and make it

1:14easy to follow them. I think that's important. Oh, yeah. I mean, just think of that. Like you have you have people on Solana that are informed, and they know they kind of know which coins are going to go up and down partially because they're influencing the movement. But sometimes just cuz they're really really good traders and they're swing trading over

1:36several days. They recognize a range. Oh, this specific meme coin, for example, Fart Coin is trading in a range. We know once it hits this market cap, it'll probably not go much below there, so we can buy and sell in a few days, and they're usually right. And it takes a lot of time to first get that knowledge, but second, stand there sit there and stare at the chart.

1:59So wouldn't it be nice to just find a bunch of those guys and just copy their trades? And so that's what we've been doing since 2024. Mhm. And it's been really fun. It's been really fun finding some of these these guys that are really good traders and just going along for the ride. It has been a blast for us and for a lot of our users in

2:22the Discord. When we have big wins, we share them and we all we all kind of follow along. It's really fun. Definitely. And twen since 2024, it's been quite the ride up and then also back down. And from what I understand, there's there's spot trading, but there's also perps, which potentially you have the ability on the way down to make even more. Can

2:46Can you talk about the two sections of Odin and how they're different? Yeah, so when we first launched in 2024, we originally came out with spot trading, which if I were to give it a definition, it's just just tokens or memes, just like normal normal tokens you'd expect like Bitcoin or SOL or Fart Coin, we'll say. And perps

3:14is perpetuals or futures, decentralized perpetual future contracts, which essentially is just you can go long or short Bitcoin with up to in our case 200x leverage. Mhm. And so when the market's going down and memes aren't as hot, it's not as fun to copy trade meme coin traders on Solana. So we're like, okay, well, what do we do? How do we fix

3:37this? Okay, well, let's just add support for copy trading perps on Solana. And so that's what we did. And now you can find good perps traders that make money if the market goes up or down, and you can copy trade them as well. And so yeah, that's the main difference between spot and perps. But there's a lot of pros and cons of each when it comes to

4:03copy trading that I guess we could get into later in the interview if you ask more about it. Definitely.

Yeah, and you mentioned there you gave Bitcoin as an example. When you're on perps, does does that allow you to like are there perpetuals of other chains like Bitcoin, for example, or are you just limited to Solana and the tokens on there? Yeah, so right now, the first the first

4:29perps platform that Odinbot supports is when we first launched perps a couple weeks ago, and the first platform we decided to support was Jupiter Perps. And they're on Solana, and the three markets that Jupiter Perps has is Bitcoin or wrapped Bitcoin technically. So Bitcoin, Solana, and Ethereum. Mhm. And so those are the three pairs or the three coins or perps contracts that

4:58you can trade. But I don't think that's a I mean, well, it's not that big of a problem because we created we created these Dune queries that let you find profitable perps traders for those pairs, for those perps contracts on Jupiter. So it's like there's not a lot There's not a lack of

5:26trading talent there that you can't that you can that you won't be able to find. Like you They're there. But it would be nice to be able to copy trade all kinds of other perps. Mhm. Like it'd be cool to do like crude oil and stuff like that. Mhm. We don't support that yet, but

That's probably coming. I just saw Hyperliquid Yeah.

just listed, and I would expect the

5:52Jupiter Perps to expand to other assets probably. Maybe. Or we could add Hyperliquid support to Odinbot. Now, I don't know if we're going to announce that today, but it's definitely something that we're considering. Mhm. That's really exciting. And yeah, you know, there's there's different types of traders. If you're looking on spot and you have all of the main coins like

6:18Solana and some of these major Solana tokens, but you also have lower cap meme coins that probably don't have perpetual futures because on futures, you can do leverage. And some of these new coins that come out, they might be already volatile without leverage. So that's probably a safety mechanism in there. But for myself, look I like some of these major market cap

6:41coins like Solana or Bitcoin and Ethereum. Being able to do leverage on a coin that you have a higher chance of security thinking that it's not going to go to absolute zero, which is possible with some of these new coins. You have those different options as a trader. Yeah, it's a very nice. It's nice being able to go on leverage. For memes, like

7:07

[clears throat]

a lot of the meme plays are it you could easily go to zero, easily. So you got to keep your trade size small.

[snorts]

but you can also not not just as easily, but it's very if you're making a lot of trades, it's very common to hit a 10x or even a 100x on a meme. It's like it just happens all the time if you just look at every meme

7:33that's ever created. Some just go up and they keep going up. And so if you're buying enough of them, you will Well, not financial advice. It's So you can easily hit those. But I mean, for perps, it's kind of more boring if you're on lower leverage. You're not going to hit these crazy 10x wins. Unless you crank up the leverage, and

8:00then it But then it gets a little scary, too. If you're a perps trader, you know, your entry is very important, especially if you're cranking up your leverage above like well, very high at all. So but above like 30x, cuz the market moves too far, you get liquidated. So you have to find a trader who's a really good really good entry like the one I've

8:23been following the last the last couple weeks. He has Before I started following him, he had 10 consecutive wins. They were all shorts [snorts] on Bitcoin. Mhm. And so I started following him cuz I was like, okay, this guy seems to know what he's doing. He's all 30x leverage, 10 wins in a row, 10 shorts.

[snorts]

8:48

I was like, okay, let's let's see how this goes. So he hits he hits the next trade. It was a short. He won again. I was like, wow, this guy knows what he's doing. The next one, again, he won again. So now he's on a 12-win streak. And so this guy is very talented. And the beauty of perps copy trading is he's not trying to hide from me.

[snorts]

9:12

Mhm. Whereas in spot, if you end up if you find a really good trader, they will try to hide. They will try to like shuffle their SOL around. They'll try to mix in some losses. They don't want you to follow them because these tokens are so volatile and they're easily manipulated by people [snorts] just buying them. They don't want you to mess with

9:30their trades. And so but for a Bitcoin perps market, you can't you can't really with our size at least, you can't really manipulate that market. So they don't even This guy doesn't even know I'm following him. Actually, a couple other people on Odinbot in the Odinbot Discord are following him, too, cuz I'm like, "Hey, guys, I'm following this

9:51guy, and he's killing it."

[snorts]

And so yeah, anyway, that trader I got from the Dune query that we shared in our Discord Mhm. where it just essentially looks at every perps trader on Jupiter perps and finds the ones that are doing the best. And then you can just pick pick one which one you want to copy. Mhm. So, and that's really exciting. So, say for

10:21example, I want to come into the ecosystem. I have some SOL or have some stablecoin. How do I get started and how easy is it for me to find the trader that I want to copy and then copy them? Right. So, it depends if you want to do spot or perps. I think right now, well, okay, well, let's I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's back up

10:48to just getting started, I guess.

[snorts]

So, you'd log into Odin Bot, so you just go to odinbot.io, click on enter app, create an account.

[snorts]

It's going to ask you to deposit SOL to get started. Go ahead and do that. You can send as little SOL as you want as you want. Like you could literally send like.001 if you want just to get past that

11:09first screen.

[snorts]

And then, now you need wallets to copy. Mhm. So, there's a couple places to get that. One, well, this is where I would recommend taking your time and really studying up on which wallets are good to copy, what strategy do you want to do?

11:34there's a lot of information in our Discord of like really, really experienced copy traders that have been with us almost the whole time.

[snorts]

they have said a lot of things, so just we can scroll back through the messages. I've I've talked a lot about strategies. And but there's also a good a good way to do it to learn is just to do.

11:58And so, we drop wallets every day in our Discord in a channel called Odin's Alpha. And they're all spot wallets

[snorts]

that get really big wins on spot spot tokens. And now, they're not if you just paste them all into your Odin Bot with no risk parameters, you will probably lose all of your money in a day or less. Just [snorts] saying. So, don't do that,

12:24but study them, figuring out figure out why you would or would not want to copy them. And then what I like to do is I'll actually for when I when I do spot copy trading, right now I'm I'm mostly doing perps because we just launched the product. We just launched the product. I'm trying to figure out the kinks, figure out what's good and bad.

12:47I'm trying to test it out, see what it needs, stuff like that. So, I'm usually mostly just trading perps right now. But if you So, back when I was trading spot, what I would do is find the wallets in Odin's Alpha that I liked, which is usually ones with really, really big wins. So, like they'll have at least one or two 10x or

13:16100x wins. And then just get as many of those as I can find, put them all into Odin Bot. Now, here's the thing. If I didn't add any risk controls, Mhm. I would get screwed. Mhm. So, now's the thing where you add risk controls. So, I will add a max buys per day per mirror. Actually, the setting is called a max buys per mirror per day. And mirror [snorts] in Odin Bot is the

13:44wallet you're copying. Mhm. So, max buys per mirror per day is and I like to set that to one. And what that does is that mirror can only cause you to trade one time per day. So, they can't So, if let's say you copy one of their trades, they trade again, you're not going to copy them again for 24 hours. And so, that makes it so and something

14:12that's that was a problem in copy trading before the setting is the copy trade farming. They could farm you by just buy sell buy sell buy sell buy sell in a low volume token or a low liquidity token and just they could actually drain you and benefit from that. But with this setting, they can't do that at all cuz first of all, they don't even know when you're going to copy

14:33them. And they don't they might not even realize you're copying them because you're copying them so infrequently.

[snorts]

And this let's say you want to copy 10 of their trades. If you want to copy 10 of their trades, let's say you want to copy 10 of their trades in the same day. Well, if you're impatient and you need to copy 10 of their trades in the same day, they

14:56can take advantage of that and it wouldn't be good for you. But if you're patient and you're willing to spread that out over over 10 days, well, one, you're diversifying by time, which is good. But [snorts] two, you're removing their ability to farm you. And so, if you let's say you 10x the wallets you have, now you're diversifying your wallets.

15:22And [snorts] so, you have 10 or 20 or maybe 100. You can have as many as you want really as long as you have enough SOL to support the trades. As it you can be making diversified you have you can have a diversified strategy making lots of trades a day, but any individual mirror can't actually take advantage of you. And you're still getting exposed to a

15:46healthy sample of their trades. And remember I said these guys will hit 10x's. Well, they have in the past at least. So, chances are you might hit one, too. And I know from our experience that I have and I share them in the share your wins chat we have in Discord.

[snorts]

my biggest win with a strategy was actually back in 2024. It was an 8K win. That was my biggest win with

16:15the strategy. It was very very cool win. But anyway, so that was a little bit long-winded, but that's how you get started with spot. Now, to get started with perps, it's a little simpler. It's a little less there's a lot less you have to watch out for with perps because they there is no danger of being farmed. You just got to make sure you're not

16:41leveraging too high or you're not going to get liquidated. So, you got to make sure you're following a good wallet. That's the most important thing here. So,

[snorts]

just go to the Dune query we shared. So, that was spot. Now, this is this is how you would get into perps. So, we have a query, a Dune query that we shared in Discord that I mentioned

17:02before. All you need to do is just go to that query, find now here I'll I'll just tell you and by the way, this like I think I may have mentioned, but this query just shows you the best Jupiter perps copy traders on Solana. And it's I mean, it's real time, so anytime you run it, it'll just show you the current best copy traders on Solana.

17:25I don't think there's actually anything like this available right now. Sorry, did I say copy trader? I meant to say traders. Anyway, I don't think there's anything available like this right now at all. Even like the perps that the Jupiter perps leaderboard it's just by volume. So, it's not actually by winning, by That's important.

[laughter]

Yeah,

17:47that is important. Like I think actually if you go look at the top trader on the Jupiter perps leaderboard, it's they lose a lot. So, Mhm. don't don't just go off that.

[laughter]

Not not a leader position you want to be in. No, definitely not. Yeah. You paid the most fees to Jupiter. Congratulations. Yeah. But where was I here? So, so with the Dune queries,

18:15is that using just analysis of the chain to actually see the profitability then? Oh, yeah. Okay, so yeah, so Dune is awesome. We use Dune Dune a lot when figuring out which wallets to copy cuz it's essentially just have all all is all is a stretch. They have a lot of on-chain data, not quite all because Solana is so dense. And so, there's just so many

18:41transactions on Solana, it'd be hard to have all of it. But yeah, I know a couple copy traders that use Dune all the time to just find find really niche strategies that fit their just the strategy they're working on the moment. But yeah, so yeah, we use Dune. And so, we shared this Dune query that just looks it just looks at Jupiter

19:07trades and does math to figure out which ones which traders are the best. And so, what I like to look for in that query though is traders that trade less frequently. So, that usually represents a higher conviction in each trade. [snorts] so, instead of just like trading a bunch a day, like how could you really know what you're doing if you're trading a

19:27bunch a day? Now, maybe you're an algo bot or something and

[snorts]

maybe that's good and you'd know what you're doing, but the problem is Jupiter's fees are probably going to kill you if you if you're doing that. So, I anyway, I don't like following people that do that. I prefer copying people whose their their trades usually last a couple

19:50at least a couple hours to at least a day. Mhm. But day or two. And they only trade maybe once every few days or once a day. That way they really they're just waiting for the perfect setup. And when it happens, they'll take [snorts] it. And they also need a high win rate. And it depends on your risk tolerance, but I prefer a little higher leverage. I mean well,

20:16that's relative, right? So higher than 1x, but lower than 100x. 100x is a little too high. Anything could happen at 100x. So I kind of like 30x, 50x range. So anyway, I'll pick someone who matches that description. That's the guy I'm copying right now. But [snorts] and then just plug them into Odin bot. And now what I mentioned that I what I didn't what I failed to

20:37mention so far about getting started is I think one of the biggest cautions I have or the biggest thing to watch out for is make sure you keep your trade size small. Mhm. Because you don't want Odin bot to just Let's say you set up a high set a high trade size. You don't Odin You don't want Odin bot to just ape your SOL into a single trade and it do and it goes south, which is

21:03very common because these you're trading these worthless tokens. They're memes. They don't actually mean anything. They don't actually have any value. They're memes. And so be very careful. This is why you have to keep your trade size low and diversify diversify in the amount of trade you have. Yeah. So that's how to get started. That's super important and

21:27same goes for the spot as you mentioned. It's like measure many times and then click once. Not just

Exactly.

go all in on the first [snorts] for any kind of trading investing, you know, just like buy at any time. It's it's not it's not always the best time to go all in, especially when it's your first trade and if you're copying somebody that you're just trus-

21:48trusting that this good trader's going to their next trade is going to be the best one ever. Chances are are low. So you really do have to plan your strategy out and look into the trades, study them more and then when you're very you're more confident, go for that first one. And still and even then still start small so that you know, you sort of learn from every loss. Every

22:15trader's going to going to make losses. It's about mitigating your losses and growing your wins. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So. Well, that's exciting. Well, it seems like with the market conditions right now, there's not as maybe I'm wrong, but there's not as many new spot launches. I'm sure anything with you're getting into the very beginning is still

22:38possible to get 10x or higher. But at least with perps, if you know, if we are in a in a bear market, you can go to the downside as well. And you know, there's there's definitely a bit of volatility, especially with leverage on these three major coins. Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah, that's one of the main reasons I'm copying perps right now. But actually,

23:01believe it or not, most of our Odin bot users are still

[clears throat]

still I shouldn't say the word still. They're but they're copying spot. And they're having success. So with the right strategy, I mean, we have a core user base that's a very loyal and they've stuck around for a long time now. And so they know what they're doing.

23:27And with they just found what works. They each have a little just a different They each have a slightly different strategy. Some way more complicated than others. But they once you find what works it and kind of tweak it over time as as the market changes,

[snorts]

it works. But that's that's their alpha. That's their edge. And

23:54each person needs to figure that out for themselves. Mhm. If we If we said, "Hey, this is the one thing that works right now in this market, guys." then it wouldn't work anymore. So

Yeah. You got to you got to get that You have to be that advantaged trader

[snorts]

to in order to in order to make that money. For sure.

So do you think with the on the

24:15perp side with the current assets that are available, the top three, is that enough for Odin? Are you hoping that Jupiter releases more perp contracts or are you looking to expand as you mentioned into other things that might have more volatility? So we really do what our users want. That's been what we've been doing since the beginning. And so I'll get in there.

24:41I'll talk to them.

[clears throat]

I'll interview people. I'll say like one of the questions I ask is what has been the most painful thing you've experienced that was caused by Odin bot? And some [snorts] people actually have Some people are like, " this like this one trade didn't go through. It was really It was really painful. Like this would have been

25:03a great win." And so it's really helpful for me. Now it hurts to ask that question.

Mhm. But it's good because the more you ask it, the better your product gets over time. So we've been asking that question for years. And so now it's really good. But Now so do if you know, no one's actually asked to have more assets than just Bitcoin,

25:30Ethereum, and SOL. So That's great. I don't know. Maybe. But the first thing that multiple people asked for as soon as we announced Jupiter perps was when Hyperliquid. Mhm. So Hi If we do end up adding Hyperliquid, we'll have a lot more than just Bitcoin, Bitcoin, SOL, and Ethereum. So Mhm.

25:58Yeah. No, that's that's great. And Hyperliquid ecosystem, I've had a few projects on the show that are under Hyperliquid ecosystem and it seems like well, hype itself is sort of defying any bear markets. It's it's holding strong and they continue to add real world asset contracts. They just added oil and you know, other off-chain assets beyond just crypto

26:23assets. So it would that be because it's mainly based on Solana here, would that be hard if you were to implement it? Yeah, it would be hard. It would [clears throat] be a big change because we've been Solana native the whole time. Mhm. But we do what the market wants. So and we do what our users want. So if that's what they want, that's what we're going

26:47to do.

[snorts]

But yeah, it's going to be a little a little bit of a challenge. It'll a little fun fun little challenge. So with the all of the wallets that get posted, say you're in the Discord and there's a bunch of wallets sort of going through all of those, doing all of the research before you actually click trade, you know, that's

27:07the important part, of course. Are you guys using any technology? Obviously the Dune there, they're probably using some kind of AI to help bring the information out of the data. So are you guys utilizing any AI technology to be able to sort of parse the valuable information out of those wallets or help users decide where to focus on when they're copy trading?

27:35So Dune, I don't exactly know what Dune does, but they what they're doing is they're they're they're structurally parsing blockchain data and storing it in a relational database, like a really big relational database. And you can actually query it with SQL. Mhm. I think they actually do set the Actually it just doesn't matter. But

28:00this type the type of SQL it is Trino SQL. Mhm. [snorts] But the what we're what we're actually also doing now, I haven't mentioned this yet, is we have another tool and it's [snorts] a wallet screener that we make available make make available if you purchase Odin bot pro. Mhm. And the wallet screener is

28:28it's really nice because Dune takes a really long time and it costs credits. They give you some free credits when [snorts] you press press run on the query, you have to wait like minutes usually. And it costs a bunch of credits and you run out of credits.

[snorts]

And with Odin bot pro, there's it's like the query times are less than a second. So what we've

28:52done is we're every Solana every trade that's happening on Solana, we're actually indexing on [snorts] our we have a bare metal server that is ingesting every trade on Solana and indexing it by the fields that matter to copy traders. And you can actually instantly query in less than a second. You can just put in We have like 20 filters. So for example, median trade

29:21time, win ratio, ROI, you know, any anything you'd want. And then you can put all those in and press press run or press Actually, I don't think you just press enter. I don't remember.

[snorts]

But it will instantly show you all the wallets that match that criteria in real time. And so every second it's it's updated as people trade.

[snorts]

29:47

So now that's not if that we don't actually use AI to power that, but that it feels like magic, right? It feels like AI. But, it's there's no AI. But it's very useful. I know a couple people that exclusively get their wallets from Odin their their wallets they copy from Odin Pro doing very [snorts] well. One of them just shared their PNL calendar

30:14in our share your wins chat. And he is just killing it. I'm very impressed. So good good work. Good work to him. Like he props to him. He I don't I don't want to I probably shouldn't say random people's names, but he's been with us for a long time and he put his he's put in a lot of work. So, it's it's great to see him really making

30:38it. So, oh you had to mention AI. You know, we also have an API. And so, if you do want to use some kind of AI, like some LLM or something like that or Claude Claude bot or what is it what is it called now? Yeah, Open Claude.

Open Claude? Open Claude. If you do want to use Open Claude or something like

31:04that, we have an API where you can just have Open Claude manage your own bot. And so, yeah, that's we have people building on top of our API and it's really cool to see the things they're building. Yeah, make they're making some crazy strategies that automatically like add and remove mirrors based on based on what's happening on chain.

31:32So, yeah, you can also use AI for that. That'd be that'd be probably a creative use. I'd love to see someone use Open Claude with Odin bot.

[snorts]

Yeah, so with the you know, with the perps now being live for a few weeks, the wallets and the Odin bot Pro wallet screener sounds really cool. What's the best way for people to get started and

31:56get deposited and then get access to finding which wallets to copy? Yeah, so honestly, if you're just looking, you just join the Discord, look around. If you want to take action, yeah, just create an account. Honestly, I feel like if you join the Discord, you're you're part of the family anyway. So, just hang out with us. You'll see people posting wins.

32:20You'll see people talking about strategies. And from there, yeah, whenever you want, just create an account, deposit some SOL, research some wallets. That's what we all do. We just research wallets and figure out the best strategies. Then when you're ready, plug in some wallets. Remember to keep your trade size low. Mhm. And then what I do at

32:42least is when when the when the wallets Yeah.

when when individual wallets start doing well for you, Mhm. start to increase their trade size.

[snorts]

And that's how you can make even more. So, anyway, not financial advice, but thank you so much, Ashton. This was this was a pleasure. Definitely. Yeah, no, super that's super cool. Great

33:04strategy. Not financial advice, but I'm definitely going to be looking into this because there are those opportunities even in bear market or sideways conditions, there's so many assets that are popping up and there are people that are doing research to find multiple X returns, 10X or higher. It still exists even though you might look at the price of Solana and it's sort

33:27of consolidating. There's a lot going on behind the scenes. It's just a matter of finding those people that are doing the research and copying those wins. So, I will leave a link to the platform in the show notes below as well as the Discord. It's nice that you can just jump in the Discord at [clears throat] any time and talk strategy. So, I think that's

33:48great. I'm looking forward to the growth of Odin and we'll see if you guys integrate further AI or other perps or what Jupiter's going to do. But, I think you guys sounds like you guys have a solid strategy right now. And as you said, listening to the current users and what they're asking for, that's obviously important. And the fact that they're winning and

34:09and they're happy for a few years now, it's a good sign. So, thank you for taking the time, Loki. I really appreciate it and all the best with Odin and copy trading moving forward. Thank you so much. All right, see you.