How Morpheus is building a decentralized AI network

0:00I'm Ashton Addison from the Crypto Coin Show. Today on blockchain interviews, we have David Johnson of Morpheus to talk about decentralized AI, decentralized networks in general, e ether, staking your ether in a decentralized way and much much more. David, welcome to the show and thanks for taking the time.

Thanks, Ash. Good to be here. Excited to

0:22nerd out on decentralized AI.

Definitely. I feel like it's people don't understand how important it is, especially with the rise of AI and everyone that's not even involved in crypto using AI not understanding who they're really talking to, where that information is going. And I know that you have some insights into that we can dive into today. Maybe you want

0:44to briefly discuss you know why this is important to you and sort of how your journey from crypto in the beginning which I know it's a long journey you've been a veteran in the space you know how that led into focusing on decentralized AI right now

well interestingly enough I actually was in AI back in 2011 and realized I was way too early in that trend this is

1:08like pre-transformers before the big chatt breakout and you know I could see that there was going to be this cool opportunity where AI could benefit me personally but the tools weren't there in 2012 and so I decided to focus full-time on Bitcoin later Ethereum and basically spent the last 12 years in crypto you know wrote the paper on decentralized applications sort of

1:34created that framework for DAPs back in 2013 and then I've tried to push Freedom Tech up the stack from the protocol level more towards the application layer where people can actually touch it so that we don't have to have centralized companies running these decentralized systems right I really want decentralization to reach the user all the way at the application

1:56layer so that's been sort of my last 12 years is helping different projects push that forward and I looked up in 2022 and I was like oh wow finally the things we were dreaming about

in 2012 are a reality in 22. And so I started to think, how can I connect crypto and AI?

And so I started writing papers, hey, I should be able to use my web3 wallet and

2:24connect it to my personal agent. That way, if it's not your keys, it's not your AI. And so I think people are going to understand that over time just like they understand that for crypto. And so yeah, I started writing about it, talking to people, and then I read the Morpheus paper in September of 23 after the Anons, published it, and I

2:46was like, "Wow, yeah, this is what needs to exist, right?" Not just a local version,

but one where I can access GPUs from all over the world,

where the memory and the context are persistent, right? Where I can get all of the benefits of a huge network effect, but root that in the individual. So that really inspired me and I started talking to Eric Borhees and other people

3:08that I had worked with the last 10 years in the industry and I was like decentralized intelligence like this is going to be just as important as decentralizing money. And in late 2013, people started to come to that conclusion or late 2023, people started to come to that conclusion and it really sort of took off and this idea of decentralized AI. We held a summit in

3:30Austin and one in San Francisco and Singapore and Denver and we started to bring together all the people that wanted to see this technology exist. So yeah, it's been a wild couple of years

definitely. And now that the industry is caught up after 2022 and also AI is just breaking out into people much beyond the researchers and the crypto lovers. It's

3:51like everybody, you know, grandmas are using it to check their recipes. And I love that analogy you gave about the not your keys, not your coins. I think people have now people at least in crypto have understood that there's a difference between keeping your assets on an exchange where somebody else owns it and having it on your your own possession. And I feel like that

4:11analogy, it translates well to AI, but people don't really understand AI versus decentralized AI. Maybe you could talk a little bit about the potential issues with the big AI that people are using right now and why, you know, why they should probably be using decentralized AI instead.

So, you know, I could talk about privacy, I could talk about, you know,

4:34the importance of individual ownership, but let me ground it in something very practical. One of these is free and the other is you're renting it from somebody else.

Right? So, one of the breakout projects built out of the Morpheus community has been Venice.

Their first breakout moment was users in Brazil realizing they could use Venice for free instead of paying Microsoft or

5:03OpenAI to get a beautiful chat and image generation app. Right? And so that's what resonated with people. Just the way that you know Android and the open internet and Linux sort of won all those network effects over time. It's because it was free. Free as in freedom, but also free as in free beer, right? And so, you know, I try to bring it back to the practical because

5:28yes, it's got privacy built in and yes, it's owned by the user, but for a lot of people, they're just looking for the zerorion solution. And that's I think why we'll win because decentralized AI is for everybody and it doesn't matter where you live. Right? If you're in China, you literally can't use chat GPT. It's banned.

Right? And so you're going to end up

5:50with a open source alternative because it's your only option. Right? And that's true for billions of people globally, not always because of government censorship, but because of economic reality. like they don't have a GPU, they don't have 300 bucks a year to pay open AI, they're going to end up using one of these free solutions. So, let's make it privacy preserving, opened by

6:13the open source, and owned by the user. And that becomes a really big win is now I have a personal AI for the same reasons that I wanted a personal phone or a personal laptop.

Definitely. And maybe this isn't the case with decentralized AI, but with centralized applications, there's been that saying that like it the reason that it's free is because like you are the

6:34product, you know, and the centralized companies always seem to be taking advantage of you somehow. But I feel like with the shift into decentralized networks and open-source software, that sort of shifting on its head that it can be free, but also more importantly, you're not the product of somebody else.

100%. You know, and the way that's

6:58possible is through tokconomics, right? Satoshi's breakthrough was to figure out how the software could pay for its own hardware. And that was the key to making a neutral platform not owned by a company, not owned by somebody cutting the checks, but by issuing tokens to people providing the security of the network, right, to the miners, right? And

7:25Ethereum copied that model for consensus of smart contracts. And Morpheus is using that model for smart agents, right? All of these agents need persistent access to compute, to data storage, payment rails, like all of these things. How do you do that? Well, Morpheus emits tokens to compute providers, to code providers, to agent builders, and to capital providers. So,

7:50you're incentivizing in a decentralized way all this permanent infrastructure. So, if I put an agent on Morpheus, I know it's there forever. Just like if I published a smart contract on Ethereum, I know I can access it a year from now, 10 years from now because there's their persistent incentive. That's the key.

Definitely. And you mentioned earlier

8:10about Venice. I didn't know that it had come out of the Morpheus project, but I have used Venice as a decentralized AI LLM alternative and in the early days which was very cool. But I know Morpheus is a lot more than that and you just touched on it a little bit there in that the agents and LLMs. Can you sort of give a high level for people who maybe they're they're not

8:35deep in crypto but of course they've used OpenAI or one of the LLMs. Can they just go to Morpheus and use similar products for free or you know what can sort of normies do?

100%. Yeah, you can just go to more.org. There's a local version that you can run. There's a chat app that you can use. You can use projects that are building on top of Morpheus like Venice.

9:03Venice really leveraged Morpheus to build its initial network effect. They said if you staked a more token towards

Venice, they would give you a pro account. And like the first 4,000 people that discovered Venice all came through sort of that Morpheus ecosystem of people that cared about privacy and open source and they wanted a private alternative for images and texts. And so

9:27there's an entire ecosystem of projects I think over a hundred now building on Morpheus. they're using it either as a payment rail or for capital formation or they're accessing the inference for the model or the agent that they want to build. If you're a developer and you're listening to this, check out open beta.mmore.org and you can get a free key and be using

9:50lama 3.3 or whatever model you want to access inference through Morpheus. So, you know, yeah, it's very practical. Like, at this point, it's one click of a button

and here's my free access to inference that the network is providing.

Yeah, that's very cool. And, you know, I know a lot of people personally who they're they're starting to rely

10:11more on LLMs, the centralized ones, but they're like, " I don't want to pay." And it cuts them off. And then they're like, "I don't want to pay not even, you know, 300, but like $30, like, you know, and all of a sudden I'm gatekeeped from information." And I feel like they just don't know about open source alternatives because they don't have the, you know, millions of revenue that

10:31pushes a marketing team and there's not like a big marketing push towards open source alternatives, but more people need to know.

Yeah. Well, I mean, people didn't find out about Bitcoin because there was a CMO doing press releases.

Friends told their friends about Bitcoin because they were passionate about the idea of freedom of money, right? honest

10:53money was really powerful and I think having a personal AI is a similar level of sort of importance and it's likely to spread organically

just like Bitcoin and Ethereum did. I think actually that's more powerful

because people getting value out of it in their everyday life that's the utility that's the proof right and then they tell their friends and others

11:16and so you know the same way Ethereum provided all these tools for smart contract developers Morpheus is doing that for these smart agent builders right most developers don't want to run their own infrastructure or do discovery or handle payments right that's the reason the app store was so powerful right? You know, developers were literally handing over 30% of their

11:38revenue to Apple just to handle infrastructure and payments and discovery. And so we need something similar for agents. And so if you can think about Morpheus in that context, a developer can publish an agent. It's there on the registry forever, right on chain. It can use the inference which is always available from the Morpheus marketplace, right? And it effectively

12:03is a persistent tool that you can then build on and create something that uses that agent, right? They become these building blocks that compound in value over time. And I think that's really the key. You know, anytime you build on centralized infrastructure,

they can just get rid of it, right? We saw all these people that used open open AI and they deprecated the models that

12:24they were using. Sorry, you know, go rebuild your app, right? Or everybody will love a particular app and then some big company buys it and they just kill it,

right? They didn't want the app. They don't care about the users. And so it's really cool to have a community where if you build something, it sticks around and actually gets better over

12:44time, right? And you can build on it over time. I think that's really the key.

Definitely. Yeah. Don't want same with, you know, I people on YouTube or any content creators. is like you're you're working and then all of a sudden the company says, "You know what? We don't like what you're saying. You're cut off. If it was open source, that

13:02wouldn't happen."

Yeah. Sorry. You spent five years building that audience of a 100,000 people and we just deleted your account. There's no appeal. Like deal with it. Right. It's like what am I doing building value in these centralized systems?

Definitely. And you know, you mentioned there about the smart agents, and I feel like there's a lot of people

13:24that are using LLMs, but not as many that are using smart agents or AI agents yet. And even though there's been talk about it for almost two years in AI agents coming into the blockchain industry and the innovators in blockchain looking for how to add value through AI agents and I'd be curious to know, you know, what the scope of that was back 15 years ago, you know,

13:46when you were first looking at it. But where do you think we're at right now with not just LLMs, but actually AI agents or smart agents that can do tasks on your behalf, whether it's pay for your your flight and hotel or actually respond to your email and you don't even have to look, you know, it's just doing things for you.

So, you know, we're really very early.

14:09The tools for agents have only really been around for the last 12 months. There's a couple of important standards that you should know about. MCP, model context protocol or mon communications protocol is one that came out of enthropic. I think it was last November,

right? So very recently. And it basically gives a way for your AI

14:32your large language model to talk to a server, right? Because the model doesn't have all the answers,

right? If you want to connect it to the web, if you want to connect it to Google Maps, if you know now there are thousands of M MPC MCP servers that have come out, it's making your AI much smarter because it's giving it all these external sources of data. So you can

14:53think of the large language models at this as this fundamental level. You can think of the agents as the next level above that go and do a particular job and then the tools that the agent is connecting to as the third level above that. Right? So everybody started with chat apps and then they could connect to external sources and run a particular fine-tuned agent and then

15:16that agent is getting more powerful by accessing all these tools. So that's sort of the evolution that we're seeing. If you haven't seen yet, there's an ERC in the Ethereum ecosystem called 8004, which is for trustless agents. Morpheus is contributing to that standard. And it's like here's a registry of agents, here's validation of those agents, here's the reputation

15:43of those agents and store all of that on chain so that when I use an agent, I have a good sense for like is it reliable? Is it always available? Which model does it use? I need all of that information. So that only came out the last few weeks, right? So, we're still very early, but already it's gone from a few dozen to a few hundred to now I think there are like 8,000 agents

16:05publicly published as MCPs. Google also released A2A which is their agent to agent communication

protocol and that's an attempt to okay now you've got all these smart agents.

I want mine to talk to yours,

right? How do how do I do that? So I meet a bunch of people at a conference. I'm really inspired and I want to connect with them, you know, but it's

16:31hard to keep in your mind the 10,000 people you've met the last decade. But if my agent could talk to theirs and I have a trusted relationship, well, yeah, I want them to know about this, you know, new thing I'm building, right? All of a sudden, my agent could act on my behalf

247

365. Like we're gonna laugh at the old model of work where it was 9 to5 just

16:56like we laugh at the banks that they break every evening at 5:00 pm. It's like is the bank server tired? Like why why why can't I use the bank after that hour? But right that's not a problem in the in the crypto onchain context, right? So my agent I'm experimenting right now. There's there's a group of open source developers that have built a project on Morpheus called Free AI.

17:20free as in freedom at freeai.xyz. If you go on there, you can try out personal agents right now and set up all these recurring jobs and have it do these things for you automatically. And it pulls from all these different agents that are publicly available. So, that's just going to continue to get more and more powerful is, you know, my personal AI working on my behalf 247

17:43based on my objectives and my goals. Like to me, that's the big payoff here, right? is chat is cool and images are great, but I want it to actually work for me.



but I want it to work for me,

not some company or some government, right? So, that's the difference.

Definitely super important. And yeah, the chat has been revolutionary, but you

18:04still have to do all the manual input that you were doing before. It's definitely streamlined a lot of the operations, but if you can get rid of that input, you know, half of the input or down to 10% of what it was before through the AI agent understanding your needs and put getting it done for you. It's like it's going to change the game be beyond what anybody is going to

18:27believe.

I mean, just to double click on that, that's the key. That's that's the hitting the nail on the head is the current AIS can give you information. Mhm.

Right. You can ask them how to do something and it'll give you a 10-point list, but then you go have to go do the things, right? The evolution with web 3 and smart agents is it takes the

18:50action for you,

right? And because it's your personal AI, it can connect directly into your apps. It can touch your keys. Morpheus has integrated the lit protocol which helps all the cyber security. So the agent is only authorized to use a certain amount of money or a certain application or for a certain amount of time. Coinbase has done a lot of

19:13great work on this as well. They have an agent kit that integrates 402 their payment standards. So all those pieces are coming together and if it's my personal agent, I'm happy to connect it to all my applications like hey great, you know, like do that for me and then do that for me, right? And so that's that's what we're getting to is my agent passively and persistently

19:35doing work on my behalf. And that's actually I put out recently we should define AGI as artificially generated income.

That's the ultimate benchmark for how smart it is. Not like what IQ is it and stuff like that. No, no, no. What is it doing for me practically? And I don't mean like running Fiverr jobs for randos on the internet. I'm talking

19:59about doing my job, like the things I need to accomplish every day. And when my agent is doing more than 51% of those jobs, I'm just going to say we've reached AGI, right? Because that is the benchmark for

definitely. I think the that is a pretty good benchmark. And what you said there about, you know, right now the way that the benchmarks are with AI, I was

20:26just saying this in another conversation. They're like testing PhD physics. You know, this AI, it has a PhD in very specific like physics and algebra and things that don't help me in my business at all. It still can't just go on my email and answer the email. You know, I don't need to know the laws of the universe. I just need to get some work done. And I feel like the

20:49the metrics right now in the centralized AI are completely off whack.

Yeah. How many tokens you consume, who cares? I want to know how many jobs it's doing for me.

so if you if you go on the free AI.xyz interface, it'll show you, you know, it's completed 400 jobs and this many are recurring and done this amount of human equivalent work and the value

21:13that's created for humans. Those are the metrics I care about is the outcomes,

not like how it did in the back end. Whether it used a million tokens or 10 million tokens, I don't care. Did it complete the job? And I'm doing exactly what you're describing. I've set up an agent to read my email every day

and it gives me a summary of every message and highlights the important

21:33ones or upcoming events or whatever. I haven't touched my email in six months.

Like I, you know, somebody says, "Oh, I sent you message." Oh, that's cool. like but my agent is sort of already doing those type of tasks and yeah it's it's really freeing like I'm spending a lot less time doing the recurring things I would normally do

definitely and with that it sounds

21:57amazing but I think a lot of people still think you know there's technical barriers to entry to get that done for them if they don't know coding or you know they've used open AI but they don't really understand AI agents how hard is it right now and also to where it could be in the next 6 to 12 months in actually having everyday business people maybe they just

22:19work at Salesforce they want to do what you're doing with your email

I didn't have to touch any code I didn't I didn't write any programs I literally described in plain English you know write me a recipe converted into ingredients convert it into a shopping list and generate it every Thursday because my wife

wants to know exactly what to buy at

22:45Sam's, right? And the next step is to import that into her shopping app and then actually go and automatically buy the items,

right? Like that's what we're getting to. And it's getting pretty smooth, right? You know, are the perfect systems? No, not yet. There's definitely rough edges like oh there's not an agent for this or that but we're

23:06rapidly getting to the point where the agents are replacing all of the apps and the websites.

Like I don't want to go to your website. I don't want to download your app. I just want to tell my agent what I'm trying to accomplish and for it to automatically grab the agent that can complete that task. So a lot of what Morpheus is doing is the orchestration layer, right? It's

23:27a coordinator. It knows all the agents that exist. It understands what you're trying to accomplish and it's pulling in the agent that can complete that task. And I think as we go from hundreds to thousands to millions of publicly available agents will cover more and more of those edge cases where like of course there's an agent for that. There's an agent for everything just

23:49like you got to there's an app for everything.

Yeah. I was actually just thinking that earlier when you were saying there's 8,000 agents and you know in the app store there's millions of apps. I'm like, there's going to be at least an agent for every app there is in the app store right now. There's going to be millions. They might have to rename it

24:06to the agent store or something because AI agents are going to be they might even they'll probably shift it somehow for everyday people to understand that all of this is AI powered.

Yep. 100%. So, that's really exciting. And the cool thing about Morpheus is it rewards the developers, not just the capital and the compute providers, right? That's what's typical

24:30in crypto is proof of stake, right? You're rewarding, you know, people that are providing capital or proof of work. You're awarding people that are providing compute, right? Miners. But very rarely is there a good system for rewarding a large number of developers.

And so, Morpheus has 48% of all its emissions set aside for developers either building the agents

24:54

or creating the platform itself. Right? And I haven't seen a project honestly since Ethereum that is taken so seriously rewarding engineers. Like everybody remembers the crowd sale. Everybody remembers them you know having GPU miners. People forget that they airdropped to every single engineer who contributed to the code in the Genesis block. If you so much as commented on

25:22the repository in that year and a half period, you know, they hunted you down, got an address and rewarded you for it, right? And that's how they won the network effect of people that wanted to build smart contracts. There were plenty of smart contract platforms,

others that were launched before Ethereum could even compile,

but they were centralized around a

25:43couple of guys at a foundation and all the tokens were flowing to a small number of people. So part of what inspired me when I saw the Morpheus paper is like, oh, this is the holy trinity, right? You need capital, compute, and coders, right? And that's normally the ones that forgotten. So you look at the Morpheus builder rewards, and there's already 1.8 million more

26:07tokens. We're talking like six, seven million dollars in tokens staked towards all those builders creating new agents, right? And so there's a real incentive like people have to pay their bills. They're like, "How do I get paid?" You have to give them an easy way to support their project when they're building it and then receive payments from users when it launches, right? And with

26:29Morpheus, you sort of get all of that. And that's that's really what developers want.

Yeah. I know it's super important to go from building an app and putting in the app store and losing 30% of your revenue to actually getting paid when there's people using it and contributing is the flip on the head that we need u and which is super important and Ethereum is a great model

26:52for that. You also mentioned there you know the other pillars like build capital code and you know I know it's so easy it's becoming easier and easier for people to become a developer without having to know how to code and start working on smart agents and I encourage them to but I also want to touch on that capital pillar because there's a lot of investors and people with passive you

27:13know just e ether that's laying around probably not contributing to anything and I know that they can also contribute to this and earn and I know there's and hundreds of thousands of ether that have gone in through the Morpheus contract as well which is like hundreds of millions of dollars. Can you talk a little bit about the capital side and how

27:32people can contribute sort of passively?

Sure. This is also one of the things I really liked about the Morpheus model is they proposed this fair launch where there was no premine, there are no founders, right? All of the tokens that exist were earned by people that contributed to Morpheus. And a lot of people hold Ethereum and it's like, "Yeah, I want to stake it towards an

27:56open source project." but they don't want to lose their ETH,

right? And what this created was a non-custodial way to contribute your ETH, lock it in the contract, and only donate the yield portion

to the open source, right? And so you could always withdraw your ETH and yeah, it's crazy. Over $3 billion has gone through the Morpheus smart contracts in

28:20the form of Ethereum. And these are people depositing the ETH, right? They're using LIDO stake. So, it's generating two or 3% a year in validator rewards and it's only directing that yield into the project, right? And the cool thing about that is I have the same number of E I started with

and now I'm earning this additional token. I might as well stake it towards

28:43an open source project. And what we discovered is about 70% of people were not already staking. This gave them a reason to stake their token because I can see on chain that it went from unstaked to the Lido contract to the Morpheus contract,

right? So they didn't have a reason to stake before. Maybe the interest wasn't high enough. They didn't really care,

29:05but all of a sudden they could support a cool project. It gave them a reason to stake and then donate that stake. So every day based on the amount of yield that's contributed people are competing to provide yield to Morpheus right and that's a really clever mechanism and goes on for the entire you know history of Morpheus the next thousand years this

29:26competition will never end right so it's not like a token sale that oh I missed out like you could deposit stake on.org today

and start competing to earn those more tokens, right?

And the really cool thing is this is about to expand to Bitcoin.

This is about to expand to stable coins. There's a version two of the smart contracts the community has been working

29:47on and it just passed its final audit. It looks like it's it's just about ready to deploy. So that's an integration with a going to be really compelling because it also moves you past the single point of failure, right? Lido's been great, but you don't want a single way, you know, to contribute capital, right? And you want people to be able to choose their long-term

30:09holdings. Like if they believe in Bitcoin, great.

Put it on a provide the yield into Morpheus. If you want to hold stable coins, you think it's going to go into a fair market, great. Hold stable coins, stake it, and provide that into Morpheus. So, it's really opening it up to a couple of trillion dollars of additional capital that can now participate, right? Not just people that

30:32are bullish on the long-term price of ETH, which has been a great place to start, but Morpheus is agnostic. It ought to be multi-chain. It ought to be multi-yield. It is a neutral platform for anybody to use. And that's part of why I like that there is no foundation and there is no company and there is no founder because this is owned by the community. People can make

30:54it whatever they want.

Yeah. No, it's amazing to see and you know I've seen a lot of community projects but and with like no sort of leadership but also just like no traction because they're just saying like let's just make a DAO and you know everyone will get one vote but nobody can agree on anything and we haven't really built anything yet. And so

31:14it's really nice to see projects that have like contra, you know, there's already been billions through the contract and working on something as important as decentralized AI and AI agents such so early on with great visionaries helping like yourself and now expanding out beyond Ethereum to other assets. You know, I feel like Bitcoin institutions and major investors,

31:42they're just opening their eyes to getting yield on that and then where can we contribute to something beyond just getting the yield and I haven't really seen that too much either. So there's so many like new points there that like you know yeah like people don't stake their ETH because like they're just like well there's not that much you know I'm not really

32:06contributing to anything besides like getting a small percent which there's maybe risk involved but something is this important it might change the game.

So that's the cool thing is Morpheus has extended this fair launch model to everyone else. So, not only does it work for Morpheus, but every builder can create a subnet and have people stake

32:27towards them, and it's an extension of the same model. You can stake or unstake your more tokens whenever you want. The only thing it's contributing is the yield from the protocol,

right? So, you started with Ethereum, but it's effectively extended that model to anybody who wants to create an agent and wants to fund what they're building and lets the community decide on an

32:49individual basis. There's no votes in Morpheus. There is no DAO. You don't need a bureaucracy. You don't need a committee to decide these things. There's no application process. It's fully permissionless. And that's what I love

is the individual and Morpheus is called atomic governance.

It's an atomic governance model. The user can pick their model, their agent,

33:13what they want to stake towards, and those are all individual decisions. You don't have to suffer from the tragedy of the commons or some collectivist virus. You can own and direct all of your resources in any way you want and you don't need permission from anybody else. And that's why I think this has grown so fast is you don't have to ask anybody.

33:34People are like, "Oh, can I build this in Morpheus?" I was like, "Yeah, go ahead. I couldn't stop you if I wanted to.

They're smart contracts. Like, you don't need my permission, right?" And people run multiple versions of the UI. There's different websites that all build explorers from Orpheus or show off builders or whatever they want to highlight, you know. It's very much

33:53that Bitcoin ethos, right, that I remember from 2012 is like, you know, everybody was able to put it in their own voice and contribute the one the way they wanted.

Yeah, it's incredible, David. It's it's a beautiful thing and it's early days with AI agents, smart agents and this model as well because there's so much capital to that's sort of laying

34:18around that could be contributing to something important like this that it's exciting to see. So I will leave a link to you know more.org or for people who are interested in building for developers for the passive income people for people that want to try agents or chats or anything open source baby it's all there to go try and you said as you said we can't stop you

34:42From building because it's for everybody and I think I hope we can get a larger percentage of people that realize the potential and the benefits that this has over centralized AI and there might become come you know some kind of black swan day where they realize we better switch to something that actually has our best interest and is something that we own and that

35:07we're not you know our information isn't being sold off or we're not being cut off and open source and decentralized networks can do do that for us.

Yeah. Well, and I don't think we have to convince people ideologically, right? People didn't pick the internet because they liked the open source nature of TCP IP or HTTP. They liked it because they could just

35:30use it for free and they didn't need anybody's permission like AOL to operate inside a wall to garden, right? And so low friction systems tend to win. Look at mobile phones. Android is like 80% of the global market,

right? The average person globally has a $150 Android phone. And if you were using proprietary software, the license would cost more than the phone itself.

35:56Like it wouldn't make sense. And so because Android was open source and free, it won the majority of the users, right? And so, you know, we're going to have an open marketplace. Some enterprises and others will pick a proprietary solution for their own reasons, but I think most people will prefer the one that is free and open just because it's easier to use, right?

36:20not not and it will come with privacy and it will come with ownership and it will come with all these other things. But we have to compete on utility not just on ideology and I think that's how we win.

Amazing David thank you so much for all the insights into AI where we're at where we're heading. I'll leave a link to all that the Morpheus notes

36:43the platform every way that people can contribute and get involved and test out all these cool things that are coming out. And amazing to see the expansion outside to other digital assets as well. I think that's going to be huge for the people that are already in blockchain and digital assets and would love to follow up. I know AI is growing so

37:02quickly and the AI agent part that by the time we do the next video, you know, my grandma might be having her email read and respond to and it's going to make just make it so much easier as thousands of new agents come on and new people get involved in it. And I'm hoping they take the open- source route and I'm here to contribute and do that myself and preach the good word

37:24that th this is a great way to own your information and use free open source software.

Awesome, man. Good stuff. Glad to talk.

Thanks, David.

Bye, Ashton.