Three leaders on bridging traditional finance and DeFi

0:00We have one final panel remaining and then some last words from one of the founders and again at Opio and Entice happy hour which is right down there that goes until 6:30 or so. We do have food and drinks for you. So make sure you take advantage of that as well as a lovely rooftop with some great people as well. And then obviously you have the whole casino to your disposal whether

0:21you want to watch people make or lose money or you want to stay completely away and probably protect yourselves. But anyways, for our next panel, we have TRDFI to DeFi. And we're bringing two worlds together. Traditional finance and DeFi, decentralized finance, building bridges in blockchain, which explores how traditional finance and decentralized systems are converging to

0:45shape the future of money. So, please, without further ado, let's invite our moderator, Ashton Addison, to the stage to lead this discussion and the rest of our speakers. If you can give one more round of applause.

All right. Thank you guys so much. Thank you for sticking around. We are here to

1:14deliver some alpha for those that stuck through it. And hopefully you guys had a great day one. We have some heavy hitters on the stage. It's an honor to be with you guys. We got some crypto exchanges, public companies, institutional DeFi with billions under management. I'm Ashton Addison, CEO of the Crypto Coin Show. I've been running a YouTube podcast interview

1:37since 2014. I've had thousands of projects on the show. We had Sydney from Maple back when he just started about 5 years ago, and now they're just reaching 5 billion assets under management. And we got well, I'll let you guys introduce yourselves. Maybe you just do like a quick on yourself and what you guys are working on, and then we'll just dive

2:00into the topics.

I'm Sid Pal. I'm the CEO and co-founder of Maple Finance. For those who don't know us, we are an onchain asset manager, but really we focus on institutional lending. So we do loans anywhere from 10 mil up to 200 mil usually against Bitcoin, ETH, Salana, XRP. So you know, think large cap collateral. We run around 5

2:26billion AUM and, we've been doing this for about 5 years now. So very happy to be here and, talk about institutional DeFi.

I'm, Charles Allen. I'm the CEO of, BTCS. We're a NASDAQ listed public company focused on, Ethereum infrastructure. We also hold you know nice healthy pile of Ethereum as well.

Hi, I'm Roshan Robert. I head up

2:53OKX in the US. OKX is probably one of the oldest infrastructure firms in public blockchains. And we are the second largest exchange by volume globally. We've recently launched here in the US in April and we continue to scale.

Very exciting. And I want to start out with just like a quick icebreaker and you know in the last two years we've had

3:20a lot of institutional capital come into the industry which has been great. And there's still so much more capital to come which is even more exciting. And I think there's a lot of innovative companies that have been doing this for a long time like BTCS. But there's some that are on the fence and maybe there's a misunderstanding in the technology or they just see the

3:43volatility and other things. To open it up, what do you think is like one of the main reasons that sort of trades misunderstanding DeFi or they haven't gotten involved yet in it?

Sid, you want to start?

yeah, I can I can kick that off. So I think a just looking back 12 months ago a huge reason for institutions and traditional finance to kind of take a

4:11pass on DeFi I think was regulatory concern. We've seen that do a total 180 this year. We've seen the Genius Act get passed which for those who haven't been following is creates a framework for stable coins. So now institutions are no longer worried that the stable coin could dep and they could lose money that way. And then we've also seen

4:30the SEC take a much friendlier and you know and supportive attitude to the innovation from the space. They're discussing tokenization, the benefits that brings to consumers and then I think as well this year you've seen more web 2 companies start to participate. So we saw Stripe do a huge acquisition of bridge so they could provide stable coin services and I think

4:58that's only going to continue and one of the one of the other driving factors that's pushing this forward I think is folks in the traditional finance sector are looking at how profitable companies like Tether have been from crypto first business models. So I think that's all that's all sort of combining to help things.

Yeah. I mean, if I would add on that, I

5:21think you're spot on in terms of the regulatory clarity. There's a lot of outside capital, institutional capital can now flow into you know, into the crypto rails, but for a lot of institutions, they've been because they're on the sidelines, they have to come up the learning curve. So, there's a lot that are already educated, but there's still a huge swath of, you know,

5:39institutional investors that don't really understand it yet because they haven't taken the time to learn it because for the better part of the last decade, it was kind of off limits to them. So I think you know now that now that they can come in we should see see a lot more institutional capital get educated and see those flows come in.

Well Charles you know as a public

6:00company and you guys have been deep in crypto digital assets since like 2014. You've probably seen you know the regulatory hurdles up and down. How is that, you know, being a company that was like, we're all in, like from the beginning, way back before all these risk averse companies are even thinking about this. H how did that work like sort of back in the day compared to now

6:24and like making it easy to grow the company?

It's night and day. I'd say the last, you know, we've been public 11 years. The first, you know, 10 years, basically a decade, the SEC was trying to put us out of business. So, we've as a public company, I think, filed more registration statements than any other public company, probably 40 or so. We've

6:42answered more questions. They've investigated us. They've suggested we're a investment company, a registered investment advisor, a broker dealer. You know, they've wanted us to explain why Ethereum isn't a security despite, you know, Jay Clayton, former former SEC chairman, basically stating it wasn't. And so, fast forward to this year with the new administration, it's

7:06night and day, right? They dropped their investigation against us as as well as probably every other crypto company that they were frankly illegally investigating. And, you know, have allowed us to access capital. They're not holding us up on registration statements. And so it's been it's been nice to be able to focus on actually growing a business instead of, you know,

7:25wasting time, crafting, you know, letters, and working with lawyers to address SEC comments, and, you know, worrying about every single word you write in a press release because you're, you know, the biggest viewer of our website was the SEC. We were we were literally watching them watch us for we hired a, you know, engaged a

7:46service to do that. And that's it's pretty scary when you literally are, you know, engaging a firm to watch the SEC watch you and you're playing this cat and mouse. So, I'm excited 10 years later to not have them on my back.

It's crazy the hoops you the flaming hoops you've been jumping through. And Roshan, OKX being a majorly successful crypto exchange internationally, then

8:07jumping into OKXUS now with the green light from the administration in the last 12 months. How's that been for you sort of not having to go through 10 years of hurdles jumping in? How is the administration and the regulation and making sure that you guys are sort of competing with the best of the best American exchanges?

Yeah, I know a great question. I think

8:27You know what we've done is we started this journey in the US. So I joined OKX in the summer of 2024, right? That was before the new administration. So we always had the intent to sort of really enter the US market and enter the [music] US market with the right kind of the with the right kind of infrastructure with the right kind of governance with the right

8:47kind of frameworks that will allow us to expand across the multiple opportunity sets right so we've like I said we are probably one of the oldest infrastructure firms in the world in the in the space of public blockchain finance so to say we are largely an engineering ing shop with over 2500 engineers and product people around the world who support the infrastructure.

9:14And what we've done over the last many years is to build the right kind of technology that helps to harness over 130 140 blockchains and allow people to transact on it in a in a proper fashion, right? So build all of the services and the front ends and the backend architecture that is needed for people to be able to transact seamlessly on this over the last couple of

9:40years when in entering regulated markets what we've done is we've taken this infrastructure and we've placed it on what I would call as the five pillars of finance right so we've built a proper compliance framework we've got nearly 500 people manning all of the different compliance functions around the world. We've got a very

10:06robust risk management program. Our risk management function is now nearly 100 people around the world who look at all applicable risks of the ecosystem. Cyber security. So you know like I said we are an engineering shop and this is public blockchain finance is all about moving money on the internet right and you know part of the

10:29reason why a lot of firms traditional firms struggle is because you know the risks are unknown or they don't really understand the risks of this. No, we built out a real solid cyber framework and then of course client money controls you know sales practices and we the governance around all of these areas are robust and performed in a disciplined

10:55manner. I think that is an important foundational step to building in the US and that's what we've done before we launched. That's incredible. And with the bridging of tradi into DeFi, is there a hybrid approach of like centralized DeFi, CDFI they call it or DeFi products and is that an interest of institutions and what you're seeing in the market right now?

11:20

Great question. So I think over the next few years the boundary lines between you know CFI and DI and tradi is all going to sort of really tumble down right like we you know those those boundaries are going to sort of really disappear and what's going to sort of really matter is there's going to be more and more products that get

11:46distributed on public blockchain. There's going to be more adoption of the public blockchain infrastructure. And at that point what is primarily important is while you want to keep bad actors from from entering that space both regulators as well as innovators like all of us and all of you in the in the audience who are innovating in the

12:11space. There is a responsibility to bring in more innovation and there is also the responsibility to bring in financial inclusion, right? and financial inclusion means that all of us would need to start thinking about ways in which you can make these products that are available on DeFi visible to the larger population to the larger retail and institutional folks

12:40who want to get into the space. So now so yes that's a that's a long winded way of saying yes we definitely want to look into this space.

I can I can add some thoughts to that. So we ourselves have tried to adopt a kind of hybrid CFI or centralized and decentralized approach to our products. So our core product is we do you know generally pretty large loans

13:08so 10 10 million and up to institutional borrowers but what we've done is we do the hybrid is that we will lend them stable coins through a smart contract. So it's very DeFi first. We source all of the capital that we lend them through DeFi ostensibly. So we have products that are available in partnership with Ave and Pendle and some of these other

13:29large protocols. However, what we offer them is more tailored to institutional borrowers in that they can plug in their preferred institutional custodian to hold their Bitcoin instead of putting it in a smart contract because a lot of these institutions are averse to smart contract risk for various compliance, legal, and technical reasons. And so, we've given them this

13:53hybrid where the loan is on chain. It looks very DeFi, but the collateral and how the collateral is managed is very CFI and it's buttoned up and it and it makes their legal and compliance teams comfortable. You know when you when you're looking at onchain loans there's also you know as you're saying it's it's a hybrid of centralized and decentralized but as

14:16it gets more decentralized there's also like the credit risk you know and that's why if you were totally decentralized you couldn't [clears throat] just be giving away $10 million loans without coming having some kind of centralized part there

how does credit risk and even for retail as well like if [clears throat] they're looking into DeFi they want to take a

14:34loan How do you like the way that traditional credit risks and credit ratings worked? How can we apply that in DeFi, especially for financial inclusion in many countries and getting more people the loans that they want?

Yeah, sure. I mean, most of the lending that you see in crypto and in DeFi today is over collateralized, meaning you give me $150 of Bitcoin and I give

15:00you a $100 loan. So, I'm protecting my downside using the collateral. And then the way that's done in a fully DeFi way is it's all kind of algorithmic. So, there's like a set level of collateral that's acceptable for a given loan amount based on the type of collateral. BTC is obviously larger. It's less volatile than something like Salana, for example. Whereas in

15:25traditional finance, it's very centered on counterparty risk. So your FICO score, the financials of the company that you're lending to, we haven't seen that make its way as much into crypto because for a long time audit firms were not willing to audit crypto companies. So it was harder to get a clear view of financials and then you know it was difficult to get access

15:49to things like FICO scores to kind of underwrite people at scale. I've seen a few businesses this year start to kind of try and tackle that problem. So I think we'll make we'll take steps or rather we'll make progress towards you know addressing financial inclusion through onchain lending and onchain credit over the next you know one to two years but it's taken time to get there

16:12because there have also been false starts. So there have been lending companies that have had defaults or fraud that come through because it is just harder to underwrite somebody in another country and lend to them. And if something goes wrong, it's very hard to get your money back in, you know, the legal system of another country. So those are all things that's that get

16:32considered.

Definitely. Well, I feel like the crypto people that, you know, at least the crypto natives, the ones that have been coming to futurist like myself for seven, eight years, I would love to be able to like collateralize and then actually use that maybe against a mortgage or like against some real world products and like have that, you know,

16:51at the Chase Bank or like not just like the innovative lending platform that's like we need to make this more standard practice. I think it will be as more institutions accept the fact that people are collateralizing crypto and digital assets in like traditional standards. Charles, I want to jump to you because you know I think I think the backbone of

17:12decentralized finance really is on the Ethereum ecosystem and I know that BTCS is like an Ethereum infrastructure company. you guys are all in on Ethereum, supporting the infrastructure, running nodes, and having a huge treasury of Ethereum, 70,000 plus Ether on the on the treasury. And most recently, well, Ethereum's done a really nice return

17:37this year and BTCS paid a dividend or the given the choice because you weren't going to force it, but paying a dividend to the company, which is more of a centralized thing that's been happening for centuries in Ether, which is super cool to me. Like, if I was all in investing in an Ethereum infrastructure company, I'd want my dividend paid in

17:58Ether. I think that's like a world's first. I know you guys have done a lot of world's first stuff. Can you talk about that which happened in August and how you think that sort of plays into decentralized finance and using digital assets in a centralized way?

Yeah. And I think to understand why we did that there's a much bigger story there, right? And if you just look

18:19at how the stock market works, it's inherently broken. And what I mean by that is brokers can actually market makers can sell shares that don't actually exist. So, it's it's crazy that's allowed. It's under market making. If they have a reasonable belief, they'll be able to locate them later. But we've seen companies like Gamestock have 140% short interest

18:39ratio. And it's like, wait, you have 140% of your stock total outstanding sold short. That's impossible. That's got to be fraud. That's like me selling the car title to a car down the street 100 times over, right? You go to jail for that. But it's completely legal in the in the in the stock market. And so what we did by allowing for an Ethereum dividend is we incentivized

19:00people to move their shares out of their brokerage account and back to the transfer agent because at that point they can't be lent out. So we're basically squeezing the float. And what happened as a result of this is we've dropped the short interest in the stock. It's gone from like I think 6 million shares down to under a million shares since we did this. And you know

19:19that's a huge win. I mean, obviously, we can't control the stock price, but limiting the amount of short sellers and limiting the market makers ability to kind of play with the stock when you have fundamental investors that want to buy and invest and hold for the long term. And then it's also just cool, right? I mean, if you own an Ethereum company and if you

19:36give us your you wallet address, you can you can actually get some ETH, too. So, you know, it's not the first time we did it. We did it in Bitcoin a couple years ago with great results. And so we decided to you know we were trading below our net asset value which is a bit ridiculous. So we rewarded rewarded shareholders with a with a special dividend.

19:57

That's very cool. Do you think that there's seems like a lot of benefits came from that in actually helping the company and getting rid of the you know the fraud and the rehypothecation of like all these stocks you can just print out of thin air. Do you think other companies will take that step and like follow in the footsteps to pay digital asset dividends?

20:18

Yeah. So, Genius Group, I think they announced a couple weeks ago that they're doing a dividend in Bitcoin with a loyalty payment in the same way we did. So, you know, if you do something and it works, typically others, you know, come along and follow.

That's very cool. And what do you think builders in the Ethereum ecosystem? I know you guys are sort of building or

20:40helping the infrastructure, what's the number one thing that we need to do right now to besides like regulation and getting all the like the parts cross that you guys have already been through in terms of the ecosystem getting more institutions involved into DeFi.

I think we need an on-ramp, right? So all of the institutions have been on the sidelines because they couldn't do

21:01anything, but they pretty much have all the customers. So if you're not like a, you know, a native crypto or a DGEN that's actually doing stuff on chain, you probably look at like, hey, I got to go get a MetaMask wallet and I'm going to go play with a is confusing. So if the larger institutions now have a pathway that is legal to interact with crypto and can start using platforms

21:23like a on the back end to offer better better products and services to their customer base where they don't have to go get the customer. I think that's where you see, you know, really big mass adoption of use cases because the ability for larger firms that are incumbent to their industries to just flip on, start using blockchain technology on, let's say, Ethereum's

21:44blockchain is much faster than having to go out and acquire, you know, new customers and teach them a new way of doing things.

Definitely. And Roshan, I guess that's where you guys could come in, [clears throat] helping these institutions get onboarded.

Yes. So you know in a sense if you look at our global friend the glo global OKX brand you'll see that we

22:05announced a partnership with Standard Chartered for example where we're doing a lot of work with them. And you know that's just the harbinger of more institutions that are lining up to come into the space.

Very cool. And Sid, what do you think in terms of you guys just hit 5 billion assets under management, which

22:28is an amazing huge large number, but like the amount of capital in the capital markets that's still yet to come is like unfathomable quadrillions if you're including derivatives and all the fraud stuff that Charles is talking about that we're just rehypothecating. What do you think about 2025 now? sort of the ETF's been around from the year before and it's settling in

22:51and it's still the most successful ETF of all time with Bitcoin now getting deeper into DeFi. Are you optimistic about 2026 and more capital flowing in?

Yeah, very much so. I think every everyone who's looked at the performance of ETFs has mentioned that you know the rate of growth actually increases over time. So, you know, the Bitcoin

23:19ETFs, I think, had a tremendous first year, but that's that's actually going to get, you know, faster the rate at which they grow. But I think what's been interesting is this year you've also seen other mechanisms by which capital has come into the crypto ecosystem. Digital asset treasuries for one. So, you're seeing, you know, public vehicles

23:38be set up. They raise money through shareholders through convertible bonds and ultimately that money then gets deployed onchain to buy assets or in some instances they're talking about using that in DeFi or earning yield and making their treasury productive. So that's you know this suggests to me that you're you're actually going to see more vehicles,

24:01more opportunities for this kind of convergence of traditional money which is as you said Ashton a much larger pot of capital than what we have on chain at the moment. The opportunity set that we look at is you know we at Maple could lend to some of these digital asset treasury companies whether it's BTCS or others particularly when they're looking

24:23at how do they you know when they're when the shares are trading at a discount to NAV how do they either borrow to repurchase shares or they can borrow to buy more of the asset but either way it kind of closes that gap or that mispricing in public markets and then the other thing that we're seeing more of is we're actually now in conversations with a few banks and asset

24:44managers from private credit who are looking at lending you know creating large facilities where a player like us can do many loans against Bitcoin or other assets. So they would give us a large line of credit and then we break it up into smaller loans, but that allows them to kind of enter this space without having to do the leg work of hiring a bunch of people who need to

25:07monitor it and you know manage client communications because that just takes time. So it allows them to get to market faster. So we're seeing new vehicles for public equity markets, interest from private asset managers and indeed commercial banks in this type of thing.

It's very exciting. And Charles, you have in BTCS like a pretty big pile

25:31of Ether and Sid mentioned the digital asset treasuries which has sort of been a big thing moving from Bitcoin with Micro Strategy into other digital assets like Ethereum and Salana and we're seeing other layer ones as well with Ethereum more so this year. What do you think about the value that these DATs are bringing and how you guys actually differ from

25:57just just raising capital to just buy Ether actually what's the importance on participating in the ecosystem whether it's DeFi or just the blockchain itself.

So I think first it makes a lot of sense to put a public wrapper around crypto. It gives easy access for someone that's in a, you know, a 401k or an IRA that may not be able to get on chain or, you

26:20know, buy that in a Coinbase account or, you know, a hedge fund that has a mandate that doesn't allow them to interact directly on chain. And then the question is, well, what are these things worth, right? So, you know, if you're just a DAT and you're going to go buy Ether or Bitcoin and that's all you're going to do and hold it, like you're basically an ETF. Why should you trade

26:39at a premium? You should trade at NAV. And so for our company, we look at generating alpha through operations and our operations are are node ops. So we actually run validator nodes. We are a block builder. So we account for anywhere between 1 and 3% of all transactions on Ethereum. We and we're entering some new you know new business lines around in the in the

27:02DeFi space. And so we have three revenue generating operations that none of the other DATs have in the public markets. And then you couple that with, you know, probably one of the lowest cost of capital mechanisms that we use to raise funds. And there's three components of that. So, one, we have an ATM, so we can just sell shares into the market when we like the price. Two,

27:22we've done some, you know, above market converts, which are about 40% less dilutive than the ATM, assuming conversion. And the third is, and I think we're the only public company doing this at the moment, we use DeFi. So we've borrowed, you know, north of $50 million on a in USDT secured by our Ethereum, which is, you know, over collateralized and generating, you know,

27:44we generate rewards on the on the collateral that's posted in ETH. And then we're able to deploy the borrowed money. And that's perpetual debt. We never have to repay. It's onchain. It's easily accessible. And if you just kind of think like what that means, imagine if you fired every banker, closed every brick-and-mortar shop, and then took the whole process

28:02they do, put it in code, put it online, and you know, do it on a global scale. And that's effectively, you know, what a has done. And we're able to, you know, borrow at a very low interest rate and, you know, effectively, you know, have a leveraged play without any, you know, cost of capital. Because we're overcolateralized, we actually make more

28:22than the borrow cost. And so that's something really unique that I assume I imagine a lot of other public companies will start realizing that there's a much cheaper cost of capital that than what exists in the traditional markets.

You know some of the these dats like [clears throat] it seems like there's almost like a cult like following Micro Strategy and the people are just get

28:44investing so much and they're just finding other ways to raise capital through other vehicles to buy. Do you see a ri risks in these digital asset treasuries too like where you know if there's volatility in these digital assets and if they aren't collateralized well enough then that maybe they'll go down and that could actually hurt the digital asset

29:05industry.

I don't think so. So, I mean, when you look at the and I know there's been a lot of myths that like, hey, all these companies, if the price goes down, they're going to be forced to sell and it's going to create this like you know, death spiral that's going to crash the price of ETH or Bitcoin. And I don't think that really exists. Most of

29:23the companies, I mean, apart from maybe Micro Strategy, which is sliced and dice's cap table so well with, you know, dispreferred and that convert and I mean, I can't even keep track of h how sliced it is. But most of the others are not leveraged. I think we're one of the few ones that are using, you know, onchain debt. Our traditional converts are, you know, two years, but

29:44it's very a very small slug. And so if you don't have any debt and you and you merged into some, you know, zombie biotech company and put, you know, half a billion dollars in, you're you're fine, right? It doesn't really matter. like you can they're you know the NASDAQ company you merged into was a $3 million market cap that was just you know

30:04surviving and now you've got a half a billion or quarter billion dollars in this thing like it's going to be really hard to go out of business like the token you buy has to basically blow up I mean you have to get it's got to be like terra right so if you're buying Bitcoin or Ethereum have longevity I just don't really see them going away I can see a lot of them trading below the

30:23net asset value because people say well you're burning too much money I'm better off the expense ratio is better off in an ETF and you're not doing anything to generate alpha for me as an investor. So they could I could see them sit at a you know not trade very well but I don't see them necessarily going out of business or creating broader pressure on the

30:41on the underlying token.

Yeah. No, I agree. And I think that you know these I think the retail traders and individual investors I think they need to if they think like these institutional investors that they're not you know I don't think Micro Strategy has any plans to sell in a year or two years. you know, the investment horizon of smart investors is like very long

31:04term and like 5 to 10 year as long as you don't go too crazy like Micro Strategy and like do something that's too risky like the long-term play it seems like it's going to work out for these bigger players. Roshan, we don't have a lot of time left. I know we're at we're at the end of the day here, but maybe you can just talk about 2026 and sort of that long-term

31:25investment the long-term horizon of the institutions and you guys are just like coming into the US after having all this success internationally jumping in at a great time. How do you successfully like start working with these institutions in getting them locked in? because I feel like working with crypto exchange, it's sort of like working with banks. Once

31:50you're in, for example, there's a lot of pe Coinbase, they're holding the BTC funds for these companies, and it's like why should they be incentivized to switch banks or switch asset holders? How how does OKX deal with that in like whether it's getting people from other exchanges or just finding new institutions as new ones get involved?

No. Listen I we're just at the

32:16beginning of this whole market right like in the sense that if you look at you rightly said that the if you look at the entire capital market space you're looking at a quadrillion dollar industry that is you know sprouted and spread its wings over the last 50 odd years right we and you're talking about various asset classes you're talking about

32:41equities and commodities and FX and fixed income and all of those markets together sort of you know it's a huge market right the world of traditional finance it's a huge market and we are at you know we're probably a very very small part of it crypto as an industry is probably around three and a half to$4 trillion dollars right now in market cap and within that

33:10if you look at DIY 5 the entire D5 market cap is probably a very small part of that right I believe that over the next you know by by 2030 it is you know the if you look at the growth rate by 2030 we'll reach around 230 to $250 billion of market cap. So now you see how that sort of stacks down, right? But the power of this technology is

33:38that you know very soon we'll reach a tipping point where more and more products that currently exist in this quadrillion dollar marketplace will start to enter public blockchains. And that is the opportunity. And when you look at it from that perspective now, I think the firms that are currently in this in this space is too few, right? So there's a it's a large market and if

34:04even if you capture a little bit of that alpha, that's going to be good enough for the future. So that's that's my first spiel here. The second is as you get into this you know into 2026 and the future more and more institutions are looking for very compliant strong firms who can come in and act as the infrastructure behind these these markets on public blockchains. And

34:32that's why these years of building in the space is going to sort of really fall into our favor in my view right where we've we've taken the pains to build slowly and build the right and the compli and the most compliant arch engineering architecture in the space and that's what institutions are looking at. They're looking at all of the governance, the compliance, the risk

34:57management that exists when you're actually providing a marketplace that those institutions can can come into. And that's what we're building. So yes, there's going to be a whole host of new customers and there's going to be, you know, multi-t trillion dollar markets that are getting created in this space. Yeah, it's so small and we're still at the

35:22beginning and so exciting and you know so glad that the administration is like green light. I'm sure you guys are all happy, you know, that it's like we're good to go. And build this empire and rebuild the stock market, tokenize assets, bring liquidity, make everything faster, cheaper, more decentralized a little bit. And yeah, I'm super excited. I really appreciate

35:47all the insights of all the experts on the panel. Thank you to everybody for sticking around. That's all we have and that's pretty much the end of day one. We're going to be closing it out. Thank you so much, guys.

Absolutely. [clears throat] Thank you once again. Appreciate you all.